Light Talks with 922 Ministries

Well, hello, everyone. Welcome back to Light Talks. I'm Jonathan. We're here for episode two, and in studio with us, we have the esteemed Pastor Mike Novotny.

Hey, wait. I have a question, though. Why was Pastor Michael the first choice for this new podcast? All the other pastors are wondering, and we're trying not to be insecure about it, but we're just, uh. I'm asking for a friend.

Um, I'll talk to my producer, Allie, about that as she does all the scheduling for podcasts.

Under the bus.

Yes.

In minute M, number one, there was.

A little speed bump there. Um, yes.

I mean, no. Thanks for having me.

It was a schedule. I know your busy schedule couldn't get you. Got a lot of people demanding your time.

Don't lie to a minister of the gospel.

Well, we are glad that you're here for episode two.

Thank you.

Episode one was Iron out the Kinks, get everything working, and now you're here. So we won't let people in on the little secret of when we scheduled these at all. But that's okay. So thanks for being here for Light Talks. Um, this is, ah, I think a really wonderful opportunity to just talk about questions that people have that maybe they're not getting answers to, that they're not seeing.

Um, biblical responses to things in the world. Big questions that they have in their life. Uh, but before we jump into that, tell me a little bit, um, for those people who aren't familiar with you, your work with Time of Grace, your work with our church as a pastor, just give a quick snapshot of who you are, um, and why you do what you do, and maybe a fun fact about you.

Ooh. Yeah. Um, I'm in the heart of middle age, so, 44, married for 21 years. Yes. Which is pretty exciting.

Drinking legal, drinking age as a marriage.

My marriage could have a glass of wine if I wanted to.

My marriage hit the same landmark, too. We're like, hey, we're legal.

Yeah. So married to Kim, my first girlfriend I ever had. Met her in Bible college. We have two daughters, Brooklyn, uh, and Maya. So they're both in high school. So we're in the thick of all phones and, uh, driving and all that fun stuff. I've been a pastor for 17 years.

Um, I really didn't intend to. I was going to go into business. And then I read a single Bible passage that Jesus said in Mark, chapter eight. What good is it for man to gain the whole world, yet give up his soul? And that kind of changed the trajectory of my Life.

So it led me to ministry. I started in 2007. I've been here at the core since 2014 and then since about 2018, I've been the lead speaker for Time of Grace, which is a media ministry. We have a TV show, a radio show, a Spanish ministry. We get to write books, social media stuff.

So spread the gospel on kind of a bigger platform. Uh, fun facts. Uh, I'm almost bilingual, so I've studied Spanish in Mexico, Argentina, Costa Rica. I'm a huge traveler. I love to read. I finished my, uh, 80, uh, seventh book of the year last night. So that's fun for me.

87. I think I'm still on number one or two.

When you have few friends, it makes the reading time go up. So, yeah, I just love to absorb knowledge and I think that's kind of my spiritual gift. Soak in sermons and podcasts and books and hopefully communicate that to other people and help them grow in their faith.

So I know some people have asked me, at least you're with Time of Grace, like media ministry. And then you're also a pastor. It seems like you have two full time jobs. Like, how does that work?

Yeah, I would say our team here at 9:22 makes that possible. So if I was a solo pastor, I don't think I could, but I spend about a third of my time preaching here at 9:2 2, a third of my time producing content for Time of Grace and then a third of my time pastoring people.

So as you know, we have an amazing team here of people who teach youth Bible classes or visit people who are in the hospital, uh, do, uh, a lot of the ministry work. So thankfully, yeah, it's not like I'm working a billion hours a week. We just have a great team that makes that happen.

Yeah. And I love the fact that there's this partnership where you just preach a sermon, Time of Grace can film it, and it's like a double whammy for getting the gospel out there. Yeah, it's really cool. Cool partnership, at least from my perspective. I really love it.

Yeah.

Um, last episode we talked a little bit about the beginning of this podcast, really coming off of the idea of Q and A Sunday, and people have questions. So you kind of started that. So can you kind of give the little picture why you started that? Um, and just where did that come from, that whole idea?

Yeah, two reasons, one more noble than the other. Um, we picked the Sunday after our Christmas Eve services for Q and A Sunday, maybe a little bit, in part because we put so much time and effort into the Christmas Eve message and service that to not have a whole other sermon to prepare was kind of an advantage for me and our staff.

But then I think the more noble reason that's more exciting to me is that so many people have questions that they would never ask unless there was a really safe, anonymous place to do so. So I think at our last Q and A Sunday, we had over 200 questions submitted about Christian faith and other religions and is this really true?

And denominations and dating and sexuality and pornography and marriage and divorce. So all these things that people aren't like catching me in the lobby after church to ask, but they've always been wondering about. So Q and A Sunday is really that format where, hey, we'll have an anonymous way for you to ask all the things you've always wanted to ask a, uh, pastor or Christian.

And then what's really cool is that we're able to answer, you know, 10, 20 of those questions in the service. But then we just have this like, library of things that we know that people are actually thinking about. So it really shapes, not just that Sunday of how we help people, but I think as a pastor through the whole year, knowing that while people are really struggling with this issue or this doctrine or these specific questions.

So, yeah, we have over a decade in, of doing Q and A Sunday, the last Sunday of the year.

And it's such a well received Sunday, I think, just in general, um, it's always been a catch 22, it feels like for me, because it's the Sunday after Christmas and people are gone on seeing their families and stuff. So they try and tune in live stream or whatnot. But that's why we're doing this podcast, so people can, um, I think even get a little bit more time with some of the questions because you want to get through a bunch of questions.

There's a lot of questions, try and get as many as we can. But here we can kind of sit and dive into the questions. So I brought this book, uh, Taboo. Hey, and you wrote this?

I did.

Um, so tell us a little bit about this and uh, how this came about.

That's my favorite book by far. And, uh, it's a book that really captures, I think, 10 years of ministry here at 9:2:2. So it's a book that contains 29 chapters of kind of like the taboo topics that lots of Christian families, lots of Christian churches don't talk about, but really need to.

So the COVID has words like anxiety, depression, race, marriage, adultery, politics, abortion, homosexuality, transgenderism, uh, sexual intimacy. We're uh, talking about suicide, pornography, alcohol, all kinds of things. And that really came out of 10 years of trying to preach in depth on those topics. So four years in a sermon called series called Gan God Happy.

Um, Holy Home was a series. Sexpectations was a series. Taboo was a series. How m to deal with anxiety. Um, all these kind of things that we tackled like in depth. And then we turned them into, um, sermons, which turned really into this book, Taboo. So out of all the things I've gotten to do, I love this one the most because it really summarizes, I think, our attempt to be faithful to God's word, but really engage with the questions that people have, which is what.

We want to do here. So if you are looking for a book that has, um, some of the questions maybe that you have, uh, you can pick up Taboo. The link will be in the description below. And, uh, this is not really a book you read front to back.

It's kind of one. You look right at the table of contents like that is something I don't know or understand. I need to read that chapter.

That's it. Yeah. Yesterday I was speaking to a bunch of high school seniors and we gave them a free copy of this book recently. And I said, please, um, take this with you to college. Not so that you can read it cover to cover, but because something's going to happen.

You know, you're going to be invited out to your first party or you're going to lose your virginity or you're going to have your first trans friend and you're going to really have to wrestle with those questions in a way that you didn't when you were just sitting in a Christian classroom.

So yeah, to me it is kind of a reference work of here's a 10 page chapter on is homosexuality right or wrong? Or what about this? Or what do I do if I'm struggling with an addiction? So that's what I hope is like a pull it off the shelf, find the exact passage that you need at the most important time of your life.

Good. Yeah. Uh, the description has the link if you want to pick up a copy of Taboo by Pastor Mike. It's a great book to have on your bookshelf. Well, today let's jump into some of the questions, uh, that we have. So we have some more questions, uh, from teenagers.

Hey, and specifically as going through all of the questions that teenagers were asked about, um, what are questions that they wanted to ask a pastor but never have been able to, or what Are they really questions? Are they really struggling with? There were a number about dating and about boundaries in dating.

So that's what we kind of want to tackle in today's episode. So let's just start with, uh, um, just a generic starter question. Um, can I date a non Christian? I've heard this in not just teenagers, but adults. Um, can I? I guess there's two questions. Can I and should I?

Maybe there's a different talk a little bit about that. Yeah.

Wow, that's so huge. I think most of us who grow up with faith in Jesus, we don't think we're going to have to ask or answer that question. Maybe we just assume, hey, if I'm being faithful, if I'm following God, of course he's going to bring a really godly woman into my life or a godly man.

But what I've seen happen to a lot of people is that man, the option isn't there. And you're looking, but you're not finding something. And then you start to compromise because you're aching for love, for companionship, for a family. And that's what I've seen a lot of young Christians do is, hey, if there's a perfect option for me who loved Jesus, I would take that in a second.

But if there's not, what do I do? And then you start to wrestle with those big like heart issues of I'm aching for something more and I'm not finding it. So maybe I'm hoping this works out okay. So the question, theologically, can a Christian date non Christian? It's pretty tricky because dating wasn't a thing in the Bible.

You know, we had arranged marriages and there's not like, ah, second section in 1 Corinthians it says, here's how to date Jesus way. So we're taking kind of this modern concept of how we approach a relationship or marriage and applying it to the Bible. What we do know is this, um, in the Old Testament, you could not marry a non believer.

That's clear cut, black and white in a bunch of different spots. In the New Testament, we don't find those same commandments where like God said to Israel in the Old Testament, you shall not do this. This is wrong. Instead, what we find are more warnings and encouragements like whatever you do, do it all to the glory of God, or make sure if you're dating or marrying someone, it's done.

I think the phrase in 1 Corinthians 7 is in the Lord. And so that's something a Christian really has to wrestle with can I live my life to the glory of God if I've bound the rest of my life to a person who doesn't love God? Best case scenario is that I share the gospel with the person I'm dating and they become a follower of Jesus.

And I mean, you could probably attest we have in our church how many stories of people who like, I wasn't into Jesus or church until I met her or met him and I'm connected to other amazing Christian people, right? So there's that, there's the I, uh, went subscribed to what some people call missionary dating.

Like I'm going to date you and you're going to be like, uh, my mission project. That's dangerous. So there's that aspect. I've seen some really sad people who are married but they're spiritually single. So I see them in church and I'm talking about marriage and partnership. And I can just read their body language where they so wished that their husband was sitting there to hear that.

But he doesn't love Jesus. So, man, it's just these, like, can you. I, uh, think technically you could if you were my kid or you're my best friend, if you were dating. I mean, would I have a bunch of yellow if not red flags up? It's a really messy, complex, like heart, spiritual, biblical issue.

Uh, people are coming to mind. In my own life, I remember growing up in grade school and a member of our church. Been married for many, many, many years. Husband was an atheist, she was a Christian. She was always there alone, and they kind of made it work. I didn't really know them very well, but I just remember that as a child I remembered, oh, they're not together at church.

It kind of stuck out to me. Um, I wonder if too, especially with the young people, they don't have the picture of life being married yet.

Sure.

So. So maybe they're not thinking too those questions that they're going to have to tackle together. And if you don't have the same worldview, that's huge, you know, baptizing your children. Yeah, I mean, um.

Yeah, that's a great way to put it. Uh, can you really feel what it's like when you're trying to raise your kids and bring them to church? And it's hard. I mean, it's hard even when you have two parents on the same page. But if mom or dad is sitting on the couch, watching the game, hanging, having brunch, sleeping in, and your kids are watching this, I mean, that's a real battle that a lot of people fight.

So I think we're trying to do everything we can to have families that are really founded on a mutual kind of faith. I, um, preached on this, uh, maybe eight years ago. And I remember we brought a couple up on stage, John and Carol Ann. Their family, they're super involved in music ministry.

And I had them come up and hold hands. I'm like, so when you get married, it's like you're holding hands. Now, if John is moving to the right and Carolina is moving to the left, but they can't let go of their hands because they're still married. Just picture the strain.

You know, if he's pursuing Jesus and she isn't, okay, but let's say she's not antagonistic to Christianity. What if she's just standing there, but she's not moving in John's direction? Well, then he feels like he's Dragging her the whole time. But if they're moving in the same direction, they have this intimacy with each other and they're pursuing God together.

So to me, that image has always stuck in my mind. I don't know that there's a passage I could find that says, you can't do this. You shall not. But you just have to have the reality, maybe even talking to people in that situation, of what's it like trying to budget, trying to raise kids, trying to plan your weekend?

How do you give an offering to church if you have to have that conversation? Could you maybe summarize it? If there's not a passage, would it be okay to say it's permissible but probably not wise? Would that be a way?

I think so. I think so. Some Christians, uh, claim. I think it's in Second Corinthians 6 or 7, where it says believers shouldn't be yoked with unbelievers. And some people think that that's talking about, well, your closest relation. You're being yoked to someone in marriage, connected to them intimately.

But if you look at the context of that verse, it's not talking about marriage. So just so you know, some people will go there and say, no, you can't. Just like the Old Testament, New Testament says you can't. I think you had a better summary of it of maybe you could, but, wow, it's a tight rope to walk, to be able to live your life to the glory of God and raise generations of your family to pursue Jesus.

Yeah. And talk to married Christian couples, and they'll say, marriage is already hard. So add that dynamic. That can really probably even complicate it even more. Um, let's take a little bit of a turn. Um, still relationships, maybe future marriage, living together before marriage. Oh, um.

Did you ask Pastor Michael these tough questions?

I feel like, no, we asked him.

I'm just in the deep end right now.

Why is the sky blue?

What's your favorite color? Is it light blue?

It's light blue.

Light blue.

Um, well, we're talking relationships. So, um, living together before marriage. Um, I remember a lot of my friends growing up talking about this. M. The common thing was economics. It's cheaper. And if you're going to marry someone, you need to make sure you guys are compatible. Um, these are reasons that they would justify why it's good to.

But what does God say? Um, what does the Bible tell us about something like that?

Yeah, man. Um, once again, if you look up cohabitation or living together, there zero Bible passages that Use that word. So we're trying to grab some of the principles that are clear. Uh, maybe before I get to. I think, what is the clearest passage for me In Hebrews chapter 13, did you know, statistically, that people who lived together before marriage, although it seems like they'd have a better success rate, it's actually the opposite.

Yeah, I've heard that. Yeah. That was staggering.

If you just look at secular data. Do you want to be happy? Do you want a sexually satisfying relationship? Do you want to have less, uh, chance of abuse in your relationship? Like, living together with someone before marriage increases every negative category and decreases every positive category. It's absurd.

And you would think we're saving. Wait, we're, like, test driving the car before we actually buy it. This is smart. Can we live in the same house? Are we compatible? Can we share the same space? So almost in our heads, we would think, of course this is a smart move.

But if you actually look at the data and we're not quoting a chapter in a verse here, it says, no, you should think about that again, because I've heard some people say what living together before marriage teaches you to do is. Is treat your relationship like a contract. Am I happy with you?

Are you giving me all the stuff that I want? And if not, boom, I'm gone. So instead of the covenant of marriage that we talk about in the Bible, like, till death do us part, I'm gonna love you, I'm gonna serve you. I'm gonna sacrifice for you. Instead of coming in with that mindset, it's a contract.

Are you giving me enough that this is worth my sacrifice? And so maybe it teaches you a way of relationships that aren't biblical. So I think that's what dating is for. I don't think that's what living together is for. My bigger concern comes from Hebrews 13, which says, this marriage should be honored by all and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have. Because God has said, never will I leave you, and never will I forsake you. So I don't want to ask you a too personal question, but Kim and I didn't live together before marriage, but it was really hard to wait until marriage, you know, for sexual intimacy.

It was so difficult. I mean, there were times when we were on a trip and had the same hotel room, and, like, the temptation I can't imagine. I can't imagine, like, living with her for 18 months, it would take supernatural power. I mean, uh, we liked each other.

Yeah. You're attracted to each other.

There's no one else around. We're using the same bat. Uh, like, I just gotta say to myself, maybe you're a thousand times stronger than I was. That might be true, but, man, if I was just sitting down with any couple who really loved each other and thought, are you really keeping this command?

Because God's not joking. He says here he will judge the sexually immoral. So sexual intimacy is a great gift from God, but he's not playing with it. It's fire, and it's comforting and amazing and exciting, and it can be really dangerous. And so God is very protective of the gift of sex.

And so I would have to just look every Christian couple. Can you honor God with your bodies? Can you produce the fruit of self control? Can you avoid sexual immorality in this situation? And if you can't, you got to be honest. Is this worth a couple hundred bucks a month?

Yeah.

So both the secular side, is this going to make you happier? I don't think so. Will this make you holier? I really doubt so. And that's why I think you should follow the traditional path that many Christians have before you.

In one of the questions that a teenager had was very similar to, could you live with someone of the opposite gender? Opposite gender. If there's no relationship, no sexual nature to your relationship.

Like a roommate.

Like a roommate is what I'm assuming. Um, they're not very clear, but I'm thinking if it's someone that you're dating, you're going to have an attraction, and so that's just going to make it harder.

Yeah, I would think.

I mean, yeah, to your question. Yeah, my wife has a smoke show. Like, how do you. It's hard to res. You know.

Wait, what does smoke show mean?

Beautiful, Gorgeous. She's a smoke show.

I've never heard that phrase.

Oh, my goodness. Well, you gotta get in with the times here. No.

Is this what the kids are saying? Have I just missed it?

No. It could have been a term I just made up. It's just right here, right now.

I have a personal question. What is Erin going to think when she hears you say that? For all of our podcast friends, I'll.

Just say, skip, minute, marker.

No, I think she'll be flattered that you love her.

Well, she's. Yeah. I mean, if you're. If you're dating someone, you're attracted to them physically, you know, that's part of you want to be attracted emotionally, you want to be attracted spiritually.

Yes, yes.

Um, but physical attraction is part of it. And so I think that's another unwise. I like the fire illustration. And maybe, ah, some people. Some people have been to our church, have heard you use that, the fireplace illustration.

Yeah.

It can be. It can warm an entire house. It can be very nice to sit next to you. But if you put that fire in your living room, on the floor and the carpets, it's going to destroy everything. Uh, and the same thing can be true for sex before marriage.

I just want to say, I mean, we're talking about a lot of the do's and don'ts. I mean, how many people listening right now have made these mistakes and they can't go back? So I think what we love about being Christians is that we can bring all the mess, all the sin, all the things we should have done differently to Jesus, and there's forgiveness for those kind of things.

So even the promise here in Hebrews 13, never will I leave you, never will I forsake you. So you might have messed things up sexually. If you're listening, you're not the first person Jesus has met like that. So confess your sins to him. Repent and come back to the cross, and there's free and full forgiveness.

Grace is awesome. Yeah, it's beautiful.

It is.

So if living together is not wise and the temptation is very strong, one of the teenagers just asked, then, what are God's expectations for teenage dating? So if they do want to date, you know, living together, especially as they get older, off the books, what should be their main goals if they're dating someone?

Maybe that's a question underneath the question, like, what should I be looking for? How do I know this is good?

Yep. Uh, yeah, I have strong opinions about this. I'm glad you asked. I get a little. And this is just my opinion, so I'll officially close the Bible on the table right now. Just so we don't think I'm being a pastor right now. I'm a little bothered with some of the intensity in the modern Christian messaging.

Like, dating is for marriage. Like, don't date unless you're serious about marrying someone. And I just think my daughter started dating at 15, 16, not super early, but I don't want to put that burden on her. Like, you went on the first date to McDonald's. Like, do you think you can marry?

Just have a good time, just go have fun, Just see if he's someone you like hanging out with. Just uh, see if you enjoy being in her presence. So I think there's bigger questions as time goes on that we ask about. Could this be till death do us part?

Do you see a relationship that could be biblical, where I could love you no matter what and you could respect and submit to me no matter what? But, yeah, if it's a 15 year old asking, I, uh, would say have good boundaries. Go out, have fun, go on group dates.

See what your friends and family think about this person. But don't. It's like asking a kid in fourth grade, where are you going to go to college?

Yeah.

What do you want to like? Uh, okay, you got to answer that question, but we don't need to answer that question right now. So I think kids these days especially carry enough weight on their shoulders, so just let them be kids is my personal opinion. Okay. I know Pastor Mike's Bible is back open.

Okay, good hot takes from Mike today. I think that's good advice because I remember in high school, I dated a girl and super nice godly girl, believed in Jesus, loved Jesus a lot. Um, and we had differences theologically on some things, like baptism.

Okay.

So it got to be like senior year, high school, and hold nothing against her. But we had a kind of a strong disagreement on what the Bible teaches on baptism. And as I was an 18 year old, I think that kind of sparked me into the future. Like, could.

Would this be good if we're always going to hit heads on some very important things about our children and whether they're baptized or whether they have to make the decision to be baptized when they're older. Um, so that was something, I think, for me personally, in the dating that I discovered.

And that's what the dating process showed me as I got to know her on a deeper level. Um, so I like what you said. And especially I, um, think after 21 years of marriage, the thing that you learn that marriage is really about what I can do for my spouse.

The giving, the serving, far, far more than it is about the receiving. And I think when you're young, you only see the receiving side of it. How do you feel? How does this person make me feel? Do I have butterflies? Did they get me a present for Christmas? You know, all those things.

So if anything, especially as a dad of girls like you are, I hope for my children to learn that when they're dating.

Yeah.

Like, how are you serving them? What did you do for them? How can you make their day better for them to realize that's what marriage.

Is like, the foundation of.

That's the foundation of it.

Yeah. You and I are raising how many girls combined?

Five.

Oh, man. So if you're listening right now, just.

Say five minutes of prayer, start praying.

It's gonna be great. It's gonna be fine. Jesus is coming back soon, so we don't have to worry about this.

I have been blessed in the sense that there have been no boyfriends yet.

Okay.

So I thank you, Jesus. Hallelujah.

Um, I used to practice something called Judgment Day dating. Have I told you about this?

No, I don't think so.

No. Judgment Day parenting.

Oh, okay.

The Bible Says Jesus is coming back soon. So I said, I don't have to worry about this. He's going to keep his promise. And before Brooklyn or Maya start dating, boom, the heavens are going to open up and Jesus is going to return. But he hasn't yet, and I haven't thought of a plan B.

Okay, well, well, I have heard, uh, fill out an application if you want to date my daughter and sign off on that. I do carry a firearm. So I've heard that advice as well. So take it or leave it, folks. All right, how about back to some questions here?

Um, let's see. This one, I think is. This is great. I think we do have to ask. We do have to ask this one. As for all the guys out there, how do I get girls?

That was legit, the whole question, wasn't it?

That was, how do I get girls?

Question mark.

And yet underneath it, I hear there are guys who maybe struggle in that they would love to have a relationship, but maybe no one's interested in them. So that can be an honest struggle for kids too, or for anyone dating or wants to date.

Yeah, I'd say two things. Uh, the first, I'm totally stealing from another pastor I heard years ago. Um, he said, become the kind of person the person you're looking for is looking for. You hear that phrase, uh, become the kind of person that the person you're looking for is looking for.

So, man, this girl that you would love to be with, what kind of guy would she want to be with? Do you think she wants a guy who looks at porn? Do you think she wants a guy that can't hold a job? Do you think she wants a guy that's in and out with Jesus?

Or does she want someone who's committed, who's mature, who's growing, not perfect, then become the kind of person that the person you're looking for is looking for. So I really like that idea. What can I do to be, uh, a more dateable person, a more likable person romantically? Um, and then second, I'd say put yourself environments where the person you're looking for is likely to be.

So I think a lot of mistakes people make is, you know, I'm going to engage in the bar scene and yep, you're going to find some people who are maybe interested in some temporary things. But is that the kind of person you're looking for? So one of the reasons I love just a church community is that here are people who are got their roots in Jesus, they're pursuing God which is, like, the key to an amazing marriage.

So put yourself in that environment. Um, there's obviously a whole lot of dating tips. You have to talk to people. You can't just sit there with your phone out and expect. Like, you got to have the courage to do the hard things and initiate conversations and ask someone on a date, which I think is getting tougher the more we get used to screens.

Um, but, yeah, maybe I'd start with that advice. Work on yourself as much as you can. Um, and then put yourself in environments where great people tend to be, and see if God opens any doors for you.

And do you think, too, that sometimes this desire for a relationship or for marriage or future marriage can become an idol sometimes for people or just desire that too much?

Yes.

Like, what do you say to help people check against that to make sure that's not their first and foremost pursuit before God?

Yeah, that's huge. Um, if you think you need. If you need to date to be happy, like, both you and the person you're dating are gonna be very sad. Cause you're gonna put so much pressure on that relationship. Like, you're the God that has to fulfill me. So we have to let God be God.

Let he be the one that. Whether I'm single or married, whether I'm divorced or widowed, like, if God is with me, I'm gonna be okay. It might be hard. I might feel lonely at times, but I'm gonna be okay. And so if your soul is satisfied in God, if you have that contentment in him, then I think you can date and even marry in a really healthy way.

Not where I'm clinging to you to, like, be my everything. Nope. Uh, I get why people say it when they go through hard times, but, like, he was my rock. No, he's gonna. He's gonna die. Uh, if you're in an ocean and your only rock is your very temporary spouse, like, no, let God be your rock.

Put your feet on him and his promises, his presence and his love. And then I think you're in a really healthy position to reach out and date someone. Um, you can't see it if you're listening on the podcast, but, you know, my hands are straight up and down right now, and if I tip them over and make, like, a little teepee that my fingertips are touching, I picture two, like, unhealthy people are kind of leaning on each other to stand up.

Um, and really what God wants is us to stand on our own in his promises and then come together as a couple. So, again, we put a lot of pressure on each other when we're. You're the only reason you're holding me up. Sometimes you actually have to tell people in unhealthy, dysfunctional relationships you need to separate face plants and then with God's help, stand up and be better people that maybe can come together in the future.

That's good advice. I have a friend too who has struggled with this a little bit and what I sometimes told him or what I've, I think I've seen. Part of the issue is loneliness, which we're going to talk about on a future podcast. But, um, there's also a passage sometimes I think with people who just desire a relationship so much that I think it's good to reminders what I think Paul says, um, just remember that with marriage comes troubles, that there come hardships.

You aren't solely dedicated. You can't dedicate your focus to God alone. You have another person that also can divide your attention. So maybe that also. Just remember.

True, true.

Just remember.

Is that why you brought that list of. Is that 74 complaints you have about.

Yes, we're on two.

The troubles of marriage.

No, I think it's a real, real, real struggle for some people and they, they, they see marriage is just as glamorous. Beautiful wedding day, Hallmark Christmas, Christmas movies.

You're so right. So, yeah, one, uh, one year I tried to calculate how many hours of personal time I was giving up for a wife and children and it was like more than a full time job, that if I was single and I could just go home after work and do what I wanted to do, I would have like 40 to 50 hours a week of me time.

Yeah.

Um, so I don't think people realize that there's a great sacrifice of independence. There's what you eat, what you do, how much you can volunteer, how much you can serve. You know, all these dynamics that change. So I think marriage is a really good thing. I love being married, but I love your wisdom there.

Don't idolize it like this is the best thing. That's only good. Now there's a lot of good and a lot of bad that comes with it and that helps you realize, okay, if I get it, great. And if I don't, I still have a good, blessed life with God's presence.

Um, kind of along these lines, um, I think you kind of mentioned to it, but I want to come back to it. Um, when we're talking about dating, relationships, becoming the person that someone would want to date. One of the teenagers I Think just wrestles with the bad things that make them undateable.

Um, and it was specifically mentioned pornography being one of those things that maybe they don't feel weird, worthy to be dated while they're struggling with sins. So can we talk about that a little bit with the grace piece of it and how to. I mean, I think pornography is a completely different podcast episode.

Dive into that. But just that being able to forgive yourself and work, like you said, to be someone that. That would want to be dated. Someone would want to date.

Yeah. Oh, man, I can still relate to this. My, uh, porn addiction started pretty young, and then I thought, well, once I start dating, it'll be better because I have a real person. And it didn't get better. And I thought, well, once I'm married and we can be sexually intimate, it'll get better.

But it didn't get better. And, um, I wish I could, like, rewind to where this person is and do things a lot differently, because I think what I did, what was super foolish was I'm just going to keep this private and I'm going to pray, and then someday, somehow, it's going to change.

And it did not. This is a whole different podcast. Like you said, uh, Kim was, through that time, insanely gracious and forgiving, but I've ministered to enough people that for, uh, a lot of people, this is a deep, deep wound. So for whoever is asking this, I would say don't do what I did.

Um, don't try to practice reputation management and just keep this between you and Jesus. Like, that's not how this works. Um, it is powerful, it's spiritual, it's chemical, it's personal, and you need help. So I'm glad God has put this weight on your heart. If you're comfortable with pornography, you would bring poison into a relationship.

So, like, we can't go back, but what we can do right now is to tell someone, um, the older I get, the more that James 5:16 is just everything to me. Confess your sins to one another. And what I've seen is when you reach out to a pastor, when you reach out to people, when you stop worrying, what will people think of me?

And instead start thinking, how can I honor God with my body? That you can experience some pretty radical transformation and change. That was my story, right? April 24th is like a. Date on my calendar. Um, it's the date that I told someone for the first time. And it wasn't a light switch.

Like, it all went away, but it was a dimmer switch that moved a significant amount. So I just want you to know, if you're struggling, like Jesus forgives sexual sins. You were bought at a price by his blood, and now what he wants to do is help you not go back to that.

And the way he does it is through his people. So if you're a teenager, maybe I once say, tell every 15 year old boy, you know, but if you have a pastor, tell your parents. Like, man, uh, the devil. The devil's the father of lies. And his biggest one is shh.

Yeah. Keep it to yourself.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So please. I know this is hard. It's like running up a hill, but on the other side of that is something really beautiful. So do the hard thing much earlier than I did, and I pray that you experience the blessings that I have.

Yeah, maybe. Especially for the teenagers that are listening, maybe the pastor is the. The best person to talk to.

Right.

Because your pastor probably has heard this before.

Oh, my goodness. At our church. Can we just say this out loud? Like, this is what we do every Tuesday and Friday. It's like you. You take a number. So if you think, like what.

Yeah, sexual. What your pastor's going to be like. No one has ever told me this before. You're the first one.

Like, the Bible talks about this all the time and they didn't even have the Internet. So, yeah, the devil can deceive people. Sorry to interrupt you, but, like, yes, you should know that this is not shocking to us. We've been there before. We've helped people before. We want to help you now.

So if you're listening, you're struggling with porn, please reach out to one of us. We'd love to help you.

One thing I would say to that too, is especially maybe, maybe high school. This would be good. But especially as you get into your older years, um, having what I learned from my former pastor is an accountability partner in your life. Who's that one closest friend who's a godly person that you guys can tell each other.

You girls can tell each other anything. And you know that that person has grace waiting for you, that you can trust that person. Maybe when you're in the teenage years, you're still trying to find that person.

Sure.

Can you trust this person? Are they gonna gossip? Um, but especially as you get older, having that person in your life that you can tell Your biggest struggles too, is huge.

So huge.

I've had that friend since sixth grade. Uh, you know, and just being able to call him up and say, man, this is going on right now and no, he's praying for me and he's not gonna tear me down, he's gonna walk with me. Yep, that's, that's also isolation. Like you said, the devil wants us isolated.

Yep, absolutely true. And I love that we have group environments where this kind of stuff gets talked about all the time. My friend Tony, who helps run the underground, the men's ministry here says, yeah, they, uh, talk about that stuff. And my life group, if someone struggles with pornography, they talk about that stuff.

And we're there to encourage and love and pray and keep accountable. So, yeah, you just need to know whether it's the church leadership or your brothers and sisters in Jesus, there's a lot of people here who love you and want to help you.

And maybe we can dive into that topic in a future podcast. Um, but before we close out today in relationships dating, one thing I want to make sure that we touch, uh, on is, um, maybe a little bit further into the boundaries. Especially, um, sexual boundaries or physical boundaries when you're dating, you said, I think you used reference a passage, uh, to flee from sexual immorality.

Yeah. 1 Corinthians 6.

Um, so practically speaking, um, when you're dating, like, what are those boundaries or what? Yeah, I mean, it's kind of hard to ask a question like when you know the answer, but what should someone do if they're wrestling with that question? Maybe. Yeah, is where we want to, what we want to address.

Yeah. This is the age old question that, you know, every kid wants to ask in middle school catechism class. Like, how, how far is too far? Yeah, like, what's, what's the line I can get to? How much of this can I enjoy without, you know, dishonoring Jesus? Um, here's what I've learned after 21 years of marriage and a, ah, lot of pornography, sexual experiences before that.

The best kind of sex is the stuff you don't regret. Like, there's something really beautiful to know that was fun. I like that. And God is not mad about this. It's a very different feeling to experience the rush of getting lost in porn and then just immediately feeling like a piece of trash and carrying that guilt on your shoulders for 24, 96 hours.

So I would say to people like, man, in the moment, it feels like everything. But thinking of the moment after, like, am I going to Be happy about this. Am I going to have to hide this? Could I tell my parents about this, my grandma about this, my Jesus about this?

So I think the best thing that you could do is hopefully if you're dating someone who loves Jesus, is just sit down and talk about that. Like uh, okay. We both want to honor God with our bodies. Obviously we're attracted to each other, but we don't want to wait until like the moment where like emotions are high and like we've stopped thinking, we've started feeling.

So I would want to pre decide like what that boundary is. Mhm. And I think that's a really healthy conversation to have. I probably wouldn't have it like in the basement when everyone else is asleep and you know, that's a really intimate conversation that could uh, maybe get people excited about sex.

But go grab a cup of coffee, um, go to a coffee shop and just talk that over. Like what's a good boundary to have? Um, I think it should be something that you could tell others about and they wouldn't like raise their eyebrows. So have that be your guide.

Um, yeah, we want to be careful we don't be legalistic. Right. Christians in the past have said, well, you can't kiss or you can't fill in the blank. Uh, I can see that. I had a college professor who thought that dancing was sinful. And uh, here was his epic quote.

He said dancing is a vertical expression of a horizontal desire.

And I thought, yeah, sometimes he was right about that. Dancing certainly can be sexual. But that's also. We don't want to make that like a pharisaical rule. Like you can't just to uh, make sure nothing worse happens. So yeah, it's a delicate issue. As a pastor, I never want to add rules to the Bible or ignore what the Bible says.

So we know we should honor God with our bodies. We know that sexual pleasure is meant for marriage. So sit down, talk about those boundaries and I think you're on a good path.

I remember at some presentation given to high schoolers that I was with where the guy um, spoke about sex and marriage as God pleasing activities and that like stuck with me and uh, that's like a joke because I think sometimes, especially when you're a teenager and when you're a young adult, sex is just always talked about in the church as bad.

Yeah.

Don't you stay away.

No, not true.

But it's on the other side of a commitment, a lifelong commitment. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing.

It really is. That's where the Bible starts. Right. God's first words to human beings, Be fruitful and multiply.

Yeah.

If you don't know God's slang, that means have sex, enjoy it, and have kids.

Yes.

So Song of song. So, yep, there's a lot of warnings because God wants to protect us from the harm of sexual sin. But I love what you said. Let's never get the impression, like, this is a taboo, bad, evil, dirty thing we can't talk about. It's a really great gift from God.

It's just meant for a certain time and place.

And I think I mentioned this, uh, to you maybe to wrap this up is I heard a piece of advice which always stuck with me, was that, uh, especially the young people maybe don't understand that the devil is going to try and get you to, um, cross those boundaries before marriage, before that covenant.

But maybe what they don't realize is after you've made that covenant and you've been married, the devil's going to try and keep you from sexual intimacy because he knows that that is the best thing for a husband and a wife to bond, to be on the same page. I think Pastor Bill even said it, um, one time, he said, you can measure how good a marriage is by how good the sex life of the husband and wife is.

Interesting.

Um, because that is such a powerful thing together. So I think for our young people, um, don't think that when you're. Like you said before, don't think when you get married, it's just gonna be sparks and fireworks for the next 50 years or however many years God gives you.

Yep.

It's gonna be hard.

Yeah. Was it you that told me the other day that the devil tries to get you to have sex before marriage and gets you to not have sex.

After you are married? Yeah.

That's really interesting.

Uh, he tries to get you to go against God's design in whatever way he can. So before marriage, before the covenant, before the promise, God's design is you're not together, sexual intimacy, because how it bonds you. But after you do make that promise, you are together, the devil wants to break that up.

Wow. Uh, that's good.

Um, so I think, especially for people who have this picture of how far can I go? I just want to get there, Just realize on the other side of the fence is not always green pastures. It's going to be a battle after marriage as well. Have that expectation. Wow.

Uh, that's good. You know, man, these are good questions.

These are.

And these all came from teenagers, right?

Teenagers, yeah. And I think a lot of them are just. They just don't know it's not talked about. So hopefully.

Keep asking questions.

Keep asking. Don't stop asking questions. M. All right, to wrap things up today.

Yes.

We have a bonus question for you from a teenager.

Do I need my Bible?

You don't need your Bible for this one.

Okay, close it.

I don't think there's a passage on this one. If Batman had enough prep time, could he beat Jesus in a fist fight? Apparently, a kid has always wanted to ask a pastor about this, so this is their big moment to find out from the wisdom of a pastor.

Um, if I gave you 100 years to read and study every book, would you know more than Jesus knows?

Nope.

Nope. You'll never get to all knowing status. So Batman could be hitting the gym, pumping creatine and protein shakes, and he might get stronger, but he'll never be all powerful. So sorry to our young friend. I'm assuming this is a young man who asked this question. Is that a stereotype?

It is, and I think it's a valid one. We're going to go with it, actually.

My wife's a preschool teacher, and whenever she wants to impress, like, the little boys with the amazingness of Jesus, she'll say, like, he's like Superman but stronger. Wow. I love Jesus. So I like this question.

All right, well, Pastor Mike, thanks for joining us today on Light Talks.

This was a joy. Thanks for having me.

This was good. A lot of great questions. Uh, I hope people find this beneficial. If you have questions that, uh, you want us to talk about, um, in the description, there will be a link for you to fill out a form, uh, where you can, uh, submit what questions do you have?

What questions have you always wanted to ask? And we'll do our best to try and answer, uh, them on our podcast. So thanks so much for being here joining us on this episode of Light Talks.